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| Meet Your Meat (on animal cruelty) | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 19 2008, 02:02 AM (946 Views) | |
| Post #1 Jul 19 2008, 02:02 AM | Joe E. Holman |
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You guys have heard me say before that there will come a time when flesh-food will be a thing of the past. I still beleive that, even though I myself can't be (for physical reasons) a vegatarian, but regardless of why you feel the way you feel about the subject, this video is hard to watch and should clarify just what I mean... http://www.chooseveg.com/meet-your-meat.asp |
 
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| Post #2 Jul 19 2008, 02:35 AM | Bonzolee |
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"What you are about to see, is beyond your worst nightmares...: Really? You surprise linked me to a video of Poison playing live?  I'll probably check that video out tomorrow sometime. I just can't fathom a day when people don't eat meat though. This country? Maybe... a long time from now. No way can I see people as a whole doing that though. |
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"Brain disorders, like madness, are themselves contagious. The frequency of madness among doctors who are specialists for the mad is notorious." – Gustave Le Bon "The fact that audiences would rather go to Wonderland than face Iraq speaks volumes." – Random Youtube Poster | |
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| Post #3 Jul 19 2008, 09:25 AM | Joe E. Holman |
| Eventually...over the next millenia or two. But yes, it's coming! |
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| Post #4 Jul 19 2008, 09:52 AM | Huxley |
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There's no doubt we are omniverous and I'd imagine the ability to take the goodness from bone marrow, plus other choice cuts, has given us the high protein needed to develop bigger brains. However, having said that, I still morally wrestle with eating meat (which i love) and the cruelty shown to animals that happen to be on our menus. I struggle to reconcile my ethics when faced with Sweet & Sour Spare ribs. If they can come up with a succesful, non meat alternative (I do not think Quorn is up to much) then I would embrace it fully and give up the real stuff. |
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| Post #5 Jul 19 2008, 01:45 PM | Steve |
You could be right. I used to laugh at all that vegetarian stuff but I'm more aware of it now; especially after seeing videos like that (sorry, couldn't make it all the way through). I still eat meat and love nothing better than a quality steak, but I can see that changing. Slowly but surely. |
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| Post #6 Jul 19 2008, 03:16 PM | Bonzolee |
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Here's my thing though: how would you convince everyone? By pointing out how all the other animals out there are super nice and never hurt any other creature? Yeah, I'm sure that would work...  Good luck on convincing Penn and Teller.
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"Brain disorders, like madness, are themselves contagious. The frequency of madness among doctors who are specialists for the mad is notorious." – Gustave Le Bon "The fact that audiences would rather go to Wonderland than face Iraq speaks volumes." – Random Youtube Poster | |
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| Post #7 Jul 19 2008, 04:11 PM | Steve |
There will always be someone who disagrees. Just look at the massive undertaking of getting people to let go of superstitious thinking. I guess we just become more sensitive to certain things and realize how barbaric and hypocritical we can be. If we were nice to the cows and chickens before we killed and ate them would that make a difference in how we think? I can relate to the absurdity of becoming too sensitive. Vegetarians eat a lot of plants. They're living things too. Is having them scooped up and slaughtered in a giant piece of farm machinery any less barbaric? |
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| Post #8 Jul 20 2008, 07:32 AM | Huxley |
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We know that nature consists of cruel, rapid shock -death everywhere. But as sentient beings we have the ability to rise above our instincts. Cases in point: It makes evolutionary sense to rape every female you encounter, unless she is compliant. It makes evolutionary sense to kill some males and fertilise their women - after killing their existing children. And so on. But we view these things as abhorrent and apart from a few enclaves (we are talking Muslims here) we have generally abandoned all the 'needs and dictates' of our natural drives and replaced them with a justice system. So could it be for animal welfare. I have seen an argument that goes like this: These animals would not enjoy any life at all as they are bred for slaughter. Are they supposed to show gratitude for that? We need a better source of protein; one that is available all over. |
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| Post #9 Jul 20 2008, 04:00 PM | Bonzolee |
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One thing that I find troubling is the way and style animals are bred for slaughter. The conditions they house those animals in is usually absolutely disgusting. I mean, Ted Nugent hunts and houses animals at his place and the lives they live compared to the animals housed by these food companies is like night and day- Nuge's animals have a far higher quality of life. Easily. Yeah, we get it- you plan on killing and eating the animal. But do you have to torture it through its whole life as well? Evolutionary sense... doesn't make too much sense to me. Rape every woman? Well, first off, I'd imagine that rape sex would be fucking terrible. Not what I need. At all. Second off, I have sex for pleasure, not for breeding purposes. Third, if I was a woman and rape was a widespread thing that happened all over the place to virtually every woman, I'd start packing heat among other things. Cap any bastard that pulled any shit like that on me. Also, wouldn't any offspring have a far better chance with, you know, 2 parents? Especially if the parents have great social contacts. Besides, if you really can't find anyone to have sex with that you have to start using force... pathetic. Fact is, we still act like animals on so many levels. A lot of people are there to serve and provide for others. They live with invisible chains on them, pretty much. When a company lays off a hard worker to save money (or pay for increased salaries at the top), that, to me, is like threatening someone. Without a job, you don't earn money. Without money, you can't eat. Hell, a friend of mine was saying the books were off for quite some time. Company was losing a hell of a lot of money. His boss who got the job through a friend, didn't listen to him. They didn't get along at all. Long story short, changes were made, the company saved money, and the boss who had it wrong from the start was the one rewarded with a big, fat bonus. The guy who actually did all the work and had the skills? Got yelled at a few times, probably will be one of the first to go if the company starts laying off workers. I don't see humans as this "above" species. No, I see humans as animals. Look at the way most act. Sure, we're damn smart animals, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to the same things. The same bullshit. I'd bet that never changes. |
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"Brain disorders, like madness, are themselves contagious. The frequency of madness among doctors who are specialists for the mad is notorious." – Gustave Le Bon "The fact that audiences would rather go to Wonderland than face Iraq speaks volumes." – Random Youtube Poster | |
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| Post #10 Jul 20 2008, 04:15 PM | Huxley |
Bonz wrote:
That is missing the point entirely. Whether terrible or not, rape gives the rapist many more opprotunities to grow the gene pool. That is not a value judgement; it just makes sense for the male to have as much sex with as many females as one can. That we can enjoy sex for pleasure, is, I am afraid, not relevant. Its as irrelevant as a female orgasm. Another adaptation that is completely unnecessary to female fertility. Women get preganat with and without orgasm. The point I was making is that there are strategies and natural drives that make sense in an evolutionary way but not in a modern westernised world. That's the way it is. We have also evolved a better way to deal with those drives. We select our partners. But, In the darwinian sense, it makes sense that we impregnate (by fair means or foul) as many females as we can. For the female part, they supposedly go for power and position to breed really good babies that willl survive, which is why you'll never see a gorgeous 19 year old with a bum. It just doesnt happen. |
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| Post #11 Jul 21 2008, 02:47 AM | Perry |
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It seems I'm the lone voice of and for a contemporary vegetarian dietary regimen. How do you get people to change? How do you get fundies to think - clearly!? Answer the last one and you've answered the first. I like Hux's parallel with the gene pool hypothesis. More importantly, how we 'rise above' our latent (for some) animal nature. Seems to me to be much the same for a dietary choice. I've been a veggie for about 37 years, so I do seem to have one or two myths on the ropes. I'm also a bit over-weight - bang goes another myth. I also have a direct line down to a 39 year old veggie daughter and a 19 year-old veggie grand daughter. More shuffle sounds as further shibboleths depart, stage left. The other less-well appreciated/accepted/recognised aspect is the wastefulness of a meat-weighted diet. Hell, even my free-range hen eggs epitomise appalling feed conversion efficiency ratios. Even if there are some compromises attached to all such considerations. The crunch is no different to rationalism/freethought, etc., versus religious proclivities of one kind or another. Some can/will be veggies: some can't. So be it. Edited by Perry, Jul 21 2008, 09:46 PM.
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Con fused jus
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| Post #12 Jul 21 2008, 03:18 AM | Bonzolee |
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Right, here's my thing about the rape argument: I could care less about my species. Really. I think more in the modern world, because that's where the game is played. How far is it from the evolutionary world, though? Also, is it really smart to just kill off everyone else? Why not team up with them? Catching food is easier that way, right? Get a think tank going on. Hunt in packs. Say you're intelligent... why not manipulate or work with the stronger males? Why work when you can get people to do the work for you? Why, you could even set up a trade system. You can get a pretty complex strategy happening. And what about our perceived threats? We still kill them. Still paranoid as all hell too. A lot of people go for happiness and power. As long as people find meat tasty, people are going to eat it. Really, you'd have to prove the risks outweigh the reward, and even then, you've still got the pleasure choice option. Totally legit if that's the case. But to think people will one day not kill and eat animals... I think y'all are expecting a bit too much out of people. I'm just sayin'. |
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"Brain disorders, like madness, are themselves contagious. The frequency of madness among doctors who are specialists for the mad is notorious." – Gustave Le Bon "The fact that audiences would rather go to Wonderland than face Iraq speaks volumes." – Random Youtube Poster | |
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| Post #13 Jul 21 2008, 07:40 AM | Dweezil |
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Boca. Good stuff. Really, they taste VERY good. I'm not a vegetarian by any means, but I'm not opposed to eating less meat. Boca |
 
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| Is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho? | |
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| Post #14 Jul 21 2008, 10:21 AM | Huxley |
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I went vegitarian for eleven months once. I had to give up when my farts were like raw Broccoli. But here's the thing; our cultural evolution has by far outstripped our biological evolution. We havent quite won the battle of good versus bad but its a work in progress. What I was stressing is that rape (if a female is unwilling) makes much more evolutionary sense to males. I am not suggesting or condoning rape. Chimps, Gorillas and Orangs don't give a shit and just steam in when they like. Of course they are driven by smells and pheromones, but the advent of occult fertility in our women means they are supposed to be constantly receptive. Come back to me in 32 years and tell me if that still works. At the heart of it lies the conviction that the best strategy is to fertilise as many women as we can since the infant mortality rate will see most of them miscarry. Thats good evolutionary strategy and it works for all animals except for those with a conscience. Its something we need to struggle with just the same as eating meat. I am not ashamed of it but I am horrified at the way certain animals are killed. I wouldnt eat Halal meat and I won't eat veal. I dont mind eating vegitarian, I just wish there was something as substantial as meat to chew on. Loads of flavour no texture. Dammit. |
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| Post #15 Jul 21 2008, 11:18 AM | Joe E. Holman |
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This has turned out to be a super thread! And good reasoning, Hux! The more sentient-minded we become, the more we fight our animal urges (or should I say, rise above them). As a former vegetarian myself, I know the benefits and the humaneness to animals of the lifestyle. If I could have maintained it, I certainly would have. I just couldn't absorb the too high fiber content (and the rest is a long, stinky story!) But this video...this is what nightmares are made of! You can't GET more torturous than that! We are indeed a hideous and miserable species. Look at the pain that goes on everyday and we don't have to have it. And when society progresses, it won't be an issue of "getting every fundy to agree." Those old fools will have died off; society will have evolved. We're just not there yet. We're not yet ready to let go of flesh-food, but it's obvious that we will be. For one, it won't be necessary to consume them for nutrients. Two, the humaneness factor will become increasingly focused on, just as slavery was abolished, but it took more time for society to evolve to the point where they saw black and white as equals (though, in some far reaches of the world, that's still not so). Nonetheless, the point is made: what was once "natural" to do becomes unnatural to us. We rise above our surroundings. |
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