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| An interesting exercise. | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 10 2009, 06:31 PM (240 Views) | |
| Post #1 Aug 10 2009, 06:31 PM | Huxley |
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I watched an Australian prog the other day that had a commnetator out on the Texas streets with a boy pretending to be his son. "Excuse me madam" he said to a passing woman, "Do you believe that the Bible is the direct and infallible word of God?" "Why yes I do" "Then would you help me kill my son?" "Say what?" she stirred in horror. "Help me kill him, he keeps swearing at me and disrespecting me and the bible says in several places that you should killl him" She shuffles off mumbling. They asked another guy, while the kid is saying "Fuck off Dad", explained the situation, and the old fart mutters under his breath, "your twisting it out of context" "but" says the commentator, "You said its the infallible word of God...." The best one was a guy who was stopped and asked to hlep kill the 'son' "Oh!" he says with a smile" That was for years back; it doesnt count now". "So what about killing homosexuals?" asked the commentator. "Oh thats for now, that's current!" Do these people actually give any thought to their faith? How can anyone be so conceited and self deceived to tell themselves something is true but they dont need to take any notice of it as and when it suits them? Is this not deceit on an unimanginable scale? Is this just a phenomenon of the bible belt? |
 
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| Post #2 Aug 11 2009, 06:21 AM | Gemmy63 |
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Do these people actually give any thought to their faith? I think that any time they do catch their thoughts wandering into the realms of rationality, they quickly stop themselves out of fear. How can anyone be so conceited and self deceived to tell themselves something is true but they dont need to take any notice of it as and when it suits them? Because they're taught to think that way where the bible is concerned. The normal tests we put other beliefs to don't apply, simply because it's the bible and it's so deeply ingrained they can't use reason. Is this not deceit on an unimanginable scale? Yes. Is this just a phenomenon of the bible belt? No. It's a phenomenon of 'True Believers'. Those who believe because they choose to, and those who believe because deep down they're terrified not to ... All in my humble opinion. |
 
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| Ignorance or Apathy? I don't know and I don't care ... | |
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| Post #3 Aug 11 2009, 12:03 PM | Joe E. Holman |
| They do give it thought. Christians are inconsistent on what they practice from the Old Testament (they take bits and pieces), but those commandments were Old Testament ordinances. They wouldn't be expected to be applied today. The non-thinking part should come in when they realize why one and the same deity would create one covenant where homosexuals and blasphemers die, and then another where it's all peace. |
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| Post #4 Aug 11 2009, 07:22 PM | Carmel1110 |
Yeah, I've asked myself those same questions. It's truly baffling how easily programmable people are. We're supposedly the most intelligent species on the planet, yet when it comes to most people's religious beliefs, it really amounts to nothing more than: Monkey see, Monkey do. Mom and dad believe this, so I will too, without question. I agree with Gemmy's point that much of it is based on "fear". What will the other monkeys think if I start to question the blatant logical fallacies of my programming? Also, it's psychologically dangerous. The programee would have to face the fact that he/she has been lied to his/her entire life, by parents preachers etc., albeit "well-intentioned" lies, they're still lies...insidious ones, at that. And Huxley, There are a higher concentration of fundies in the bible belt. Not all Americans are so regressive in their thinking, but the loud, obnoxious ones get alot of media attention, so I think some foreigners may have a skewed perception of Americans, maybe? In my state, Ohio, which is very "average America": 20% of the population identifies as evangelical Protestants. 17% have "no religion". The rest are mostly moderate Christians of varying denominations. Most of the Christians I encounter locally are of the laid back variety. Many of them don't even attend church, except on Christmas, or for wedding and funeral ceremonies...And many of them engage in debauchery on a regular basis...in other words, they're, in part, "religious hypocrites"...or is that, yet another, redundant phrase? Edited by Carmel1110, Aug 11 2009, 07:30 PM.
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| Post #5 Aug 12 2009, 05:06 AM | Huxley |
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I do not wish to convey the impression that I think Americans as a people are stupid towards religion or anything else. I suspect some of the responses I have had on here are based upon that assumption. Far from it, the only Americans I have ever met personally (usually at USAF bases in this country) have been polite to a fault and knowledgeable. America however, remains a phenomenon regarding religion. We europeans see America as the last living celss of a dead body that is Christianity. We dont for oneinstant, assume everyone is a fundamentalist but we see examples of religious stupidity every day in blogs, sites and on TV and it almost always originates from the Bible belt and fundamentalism in all the states. That is not to sayI or anyone lese tars you all with the same brush - but how else may I discuss this kind of thing when it almost always originates in America? Yesterday, I was walking around a town 12 miles from where I live, a guy was walking around with a 'sandwich board' on saying "God loves You". This is almost unheard of nowdays in the UK (except perhaps at Speaker's corner in London) and as a people watcher, I sat and observed him for a while. Almost everyone I watched, nodded back to us in tacit agreement the man was a nut job. Most just grinned and laughed. Would that be a common reaction in the US? To return to the origin of the thread, would an Australian network have travelled around the world to the UK to see the same responses? I think not. My purpose in showing the video was not to ridicule Americans. it was to ridicule the last bastions of a silly medieval belief system, that most of you have spurned. I also want to know about your experiences living withing the heart of these systems and trying to scratch a living without any delusions or illusions. |
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| Post #6 Aug 12 2009, 07:02 PM | Carmel1110 |
Huxley, Thanks for clarifying your views. I understand your perspective better. Firstly, the guy with the sandwich board saying "God loves you". In my, very average US city, that behaviour would be considered completely socially unacceptable, even by conservative Christians. Yes, we would deem him a lunatic as well. Secondly, I can see where you get some of your perceptions regarding US and religion. I've read the blogs and watch the media too, but I don't wholly agree that America is an anomaly in this regard. Almost every country has a "Bible belt". This is not specific to America. In fact, Australia has one too. Why didn't they interview their own, Australian fundies? I'm not sure exactly, but I can speculate. I think one reason is because, quite frankly, American fundies, the fringe extremist types, are comical. They're so ridiculous that they're cartoonish, almost a caricature of themselves...They often have weird retro hair and bad toupees, clothes that are 10-20 years out of date, and that horrible thick backwoods twangy accent. They're loud and obnoxious. In short, they're a freak show. Perhaps, Australian fundies aren't as entertaining? lol There are areas of Europe that have a bible belt as well. Parts of Ireland exceed even the most extreme areas of the U.S.'s bible belt (demographically). What are the religious fundamentalists in your part of the world like? Again, I'm guessing they're not as ridiculously entertaining as ours...? |
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| Post #7 Aug 12 2009, 09:12 PM | Huxley |
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Fundamentalism in the UK is seen as an apology. The English are uncomfortable with their religions; this is the result of an early civil war where the combatants took sides along religious divides as well as parliamentary. Puritanical life, post civil war was despised by the 'common folk' and it is one of the reasons why we told puritans, Shakers et al to piss off sharpish and I guess the US got the brunt of it. Perhaps that is why we view your religion as extreme? You should also remember that we made a religion up. We severed ties with the Catholic church and began to Church of England (or at least henry VIII started it just so he could get his leg over)so we rebelled against Catholicism and have been distrustful of it ever since. But there is a sizeable catholic community here that are left largely unhindered. You cannot say that for Ireland of course, but Ireland considers itself more Catholic than the Pope. After the reformation and Charles II, things became relatively lassaise fayre here regarding religion; secularism started to bite hard until in modern times it now seems like a Christian has to apologise. I recently held a poll on another site (devoted to football but we do chat about other things) and out of 326 responses, only 8% admitted to having religious views or a belief in God. The vast majority stated they were atheist with only a small proportion admitting to being namby pamby agnostics  Taken as a rough cross section, id say that is about the state of play here. Religion only seems to rear it's ugly head when it comes to the infringments and unwarranted intrusions of Islam, but we soon put those feckless buggers in their place.So I guess its hard to say what English fundamentalism is like. We have born again Christians , who just don't know when to STFU. We have 'Light bulb changers' (the ones who stand up in church with one arm in the air extatically twisting their hands) and we have Clergy, usually called Brian, who wear sleeveless sweaters and sit around all day trying to think of something to make them look 'cool' and appeal to modern 'yoofs' but nothing really serious enough to set fire to them. Actually, I dont know why the Australian team didnt just track down Aussie fundies; it's a very good question. I can only think that the antipodean version of hellfire is a bit dour by comparison to a genuine redneck? I dont know, but it seems symptomatic aof the way the world perceives the US. Either way, you lot have a job on your hands if you intend to evangelise about freethought. Perhaps its better to keep schtum? |
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| Post #8 Aug 12 2009, 10:15 PM | Carmel1110 |
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Huxley, Thanks for the info. Just a couple of thoughts, I may expound more later. Your casual internet poll is worthless. If we polled the Americans here, on Ionian. We would get a disproportionately high number of non-religionists, compared to the population at large. What does the Census bureau say? Also, I saw some poll numbers from the Eurobarometer poll? I'm not familiar with it, is it reliable? Your perception about America and religion, some is valid, some is a result of the media focusing it's attention on the "genuine rednecks" rather than typical Americans. A quiet, religious American who minds his own business won't receive any media attention. Neither will a quiet secularist/skeptic. With regard to free speech. Christians aren't a threat to free speech. They value it as much as the secularist. It protects the fringe elements' rights to have outbursts and protest and even allows some dumbasses to hold up sign saying things like "God hates fags". Again, someone who did this in my city would be considered a nutcase, but I support his right to make an ass of himself, nonetheless. As far as the bible belt, I have spent much time there. My ex father-in-law used to live in Kentucky and I often vacation in Tennessee at a friend's cabin...beautiful country. It's culturally very different from my city, but mostly the locals are friendly, well mannered people. It's a nice place to visit, but I don't think I'd want to live there. If the local yahoos found out about my Yankee viewpoints, there could trouble...? |
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| Post #9 Aug 13 2009, 04:39 AM | Huxley |
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I wouldnt go so far as to say my poll was worthless. if I polled here on Ionian I would know the result beforehand. Where I polled was on a website dedicated to our local football team, with no outward signs of religious affiliations and politics is rarely mentioned. I have found the denizens of that site to be reasonably honest; some brutally! I fully expected a cross section to admit to a belief in God but come on - 8%! Thats almost extinction level. There is one who openly admits to being a neo-creationist and I have challenged him to explain what it means(I already know - I just want to see the idiot squirm a bit) but the others have kept thier heads right down and made no attempt to identify themselves. There is no sense of persecution here- we are after all the mother country of free speech - so I can only assume they hold their beliefs by their fingernails, not daring, for fear of ridicule? to be open about it. Do not think for one instant I think all Americans are rednecks. I pride myself on being objective with people; I watch as much American current affairs and News channels as I can - I wouldnt miss that abortion Sean Hannity for anything - watching him squeeze himself each night into a shirt three sizes too small for him and generally acting like a very stupid dog with a bone. At least O'reilly comes out with shit but moves on; Hannity cannot do so despite himself. I could very easily let this sneering fuckwit worm stand as a typical American but I know enough about Americans to know that most are nothing like that. For instance; tell me - is Palin genuinely as religious as she makes out or is she just an opportunist? She seems reasonably down to Earth (for an Alaskan) to me? However, the fact remains, no matter which way you look at it, Europe, for better or worse, acknowledges America as the last bastion of religious fantasy - just as Americans view the nordic European countries to be Godless (yet, an not without coincidence, they have the highest rates of living, safety & security than any so called Christian countries). O'reilly for instance despises Sweden. They have, after the UK, the best health care system and standards of living. They are to all extents and purpose, free of the shackles of religious tomfoolery and are a Godless country. Is it not true that the States that purport to be the most Christian are the ones with the highest murder rates, theft and general crime? Or does someone make this up? Would it be just coincidence that thise states, without he bible belt and generally expressing themselves as 'middle America' have the safer records when it comes to human interaction? I need to know this because I need to know If I am being fed a diet of Fox news Bullshit. Every night for instance, Fox News claims the highest viewer list of all the cable and News networks - yet, all I seem to come across on the internet is bloggers and sites saying what a Prick he is! I watch him every night because he makes me piss myself laughing and I hold no political or religious association with him; yet he could quite rightly claim me as a viewer. So what is the truth about Middle America and religion? |
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| Post #10 Aug 13 2009, 06:31 PM | Carmel1110 |
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hi Huxley, Re: Your poll Polls have to meet certain criteria for them to be statisically viable. Your poll doesn't meet those standards. A stat from the census bureau would meet the standards of valid polling. Randomly polling 20 or 100 people on an internet forum wouldn't, regardless of the outcome. Re: America and religion. I wouldn't deny that we have a lot religionists and even "rednecks". Some of which are harmless, some are downright scary. But I'm trying to deal in reality, and not just perceptions...which is why I must bore you with some more numbers. Please bear with me. Here's the reality of religion on a global scale. First I'll address Christianity only. Worldwide Christian polpulation: approx. 1.8 billion. America's Christian population: approx. 225 million Net result: over 94% of Christians, worldwide, do NOT live in the U.S. ..which is why I stated that the America is not an anamoly with regard to Christianity. They are everywhere. --- Islam is the second biggest religion at approx 1.5 billion. (and growing) Hindus are approx. 1 billion then Buddhism at 400 million Those are the big 4. None of this negates the fact we do have a lot of religionists in our country.. 3/4 are religionists. mostly Christian, but I still don't agree that we should be singled out for this...except, like I said, maybe for the freak show/entertainment factor of the fringe extremists. Re: Hannity yes, He is a bufoon, as is O'Reilly...and I agree, he is repetitive, a perfectly programmed machine, incapable of independent thought. O'Reilly is slightly more capable of ind. thought, but not by much. There both just commentors and not real newsmen. Do you ever watch the liberal commentators, such as Keith Olberman He's pretty funny..he trashes O'Reilly on a regular basis, but in a dry wit, sarcastic way...it's good stuff. Mostly I watch PBS for news, documentaries and interviews. It holds to a higher standard of jouranalism. --- Ok, so let me ask you this? ...just out of curiosity...Would you consider yourself a nationalist? and also, Is there anything about America/Americans that you DO like or admire some aspect of? |
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