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| Religion, the Bible, Gods & All; Discussion of the divine or lack thereof | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 25 2009, 03:29 AM (2,309 Views) | |
| Post #16 Mar 10 2009, 07:06 AM | Noel Cookman |
Yes.
This brings another question - what is the percentage of home ownership in NZ? It used to be healthy and high in US. I think it will go down a bit in the near future. But, the 30 yr. fixed rate mortgage, in my humble opinion, is the single good thing the government did (back in 1934 I think it was). More than anything, I think it helped to create and sustain a middle class. If my theory is correct, NZ would have a lower % of home ownership and possible a smaller slice of a middle class - due to a lessened ability to qualify for a 30 yr fixed rate. On second thought, the genius of it is the 30 yr amortization rather than how long the fixed period is. Even then, rising rates should edge a few more people out of their homes.
LOL. Different continents - same practices.
I agree that "investments" in general are unlikeable risks. Previously, I thought that real estate was much safer than stocks, bonds, etc. Now . . . cheese, who knows. I guess it depends on the purpose and use of that real estate, eh? Jesus' words ("don't store up treasures on earth but in heaven . . . a different and more rewarding realm/dimension" - or something like that) make a little sense even to an atheist, eh? By the way, reports just out - irreligion is on the rise in the US. Those not affiliated with any religion whatsoever has risen to 15%. Don't know the former number but allegedly, it's on the rise. The only discouraging news is that while Christianity over all shows a bit of a decline, "evangelical" Christians are growing in number. [I'll do a little more research on it.] Thought that would give you a little encouragement. Have a nice day. |
 
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| Post #17 Mar 11 2009, 01:15 AM | Perry |
See http://www.stats.govt.nz/analytical-reports/housing-profiles/owner-occupied-hholds-intro.htm That was a mistake. RoV, not RoI. My perception is that religion rises in bad times, along with sales of lottery tickets, as people hope for the impossible.
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| Post #18 Mar 11 2009, 08:02 AM | Noel Cookman |
An interesting article I just found. http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-original-coming-evangelical-collapse-posts I'm going to check this guy out as I just found him. A believer himself, he seems to be saying that "irreligion" is on the rise. Maybe it's an overall trend and we may see a slight increase in certain strains of religions (charismatics, pentecostals, mormons, Islam, et al) but, the prognosticators (not necessarily the irreligious only) seem to be predicting the demise of religion much as they did at the beginning of the 20th century. Perhaps bad times will force people to think about reality this go 'round rather than seek refuge in superstition and false hope. Being raised Pentecostal, I have mixed emotions about the prosperity of such. On one hand, a Pentecostal church is much more entertaining than the standard Protestant church - more of the unexpected (provided it's not some dried up old Pentecostal church). On the other hand, having been up close and personal, I can see a lot of things that need to go by the wayside. On balance, if I'm going to get out of bed on Sunday morning, brush my teeth and put on clothes, I want to see a little action. For the most part, it's better that I stay home or visit friends. By the way, thanks for sharing the research. It's an interesting trend (homeownership downward) and I would like to know the reasons why. For example, I am a free-market capitalist and anti-Socialist. I always look for causes. Is the downward trend in NZ the result of political policies going back a few decades? Recent policies? Is there a tax "disincentive" such as the ones Obama is putting in place here? What, in your opinion are the causes? |
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| Post #19 Mar 11 2009, 11:47 AM | Noel Cookman |
Amen! brother. 
When you realize what an ass I can be at times, you will understand that I can use all the "warming" I can get. I'm honestly trying to be kinder and gentler.
Of course, I think they are on loan from the Father of Yeshua. Cheese, I'm smiling a lot.
I could only wish that this was the only and major deficiency in churches. I think it's deeper and something shared with humanity more than just with religious people - it's an avoidance of dealing with reality. For example, I've not won many friends in the church-world by saying that "the opposite of belief is NOT unbelief - it's pretension." I view Joe's "deconversion" from the Church of Christ to atheism as progress - he's moving in the right direction; at least I sense from most of you guys on this site that are atheists that you want to perceive the world as it is, not as it's imaged by any number of belief systems. To me, that's what Jesus meant when he said "I am . . . the Truth." In the old Greek language, there was no different word for "real" or "reality" other than the word we translate as "truth." My path isn't easy because it puts me at odds with people I really love and like - in the church world. But, I cannot deny reality. And I cannot tolerate the bunk I hear proclaimed from most pulpits today. I can only try to be gracious and realize that we all have limited vision and don't see everything clearly. But, we should be able to see enough to function with reaonable happiness in this world - whether it is all we have and even if it's a prelude to a grander form of existence. I don't think that God's plan is for us to follow his religion so that when we die, we go to heaven. I believe that God is more interested in getting "heaven" (his dimension of reality, I will call it "Life" as Jesus called it) on earth than he is interested in getting those of us on earth into heaven. Even the final 2 chapters of the book of Revelation show that we do NOT go to heaven - "Heaven" comes to earth/us . . . to put it non-technically and colloquially.
Could it be even worse - that they expect the bus to arrive at their imagined destination and insist all the while that the bus is heading east when it's really heading west. Warmth back at you, my friend. |
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| Post #20 Mar 14 2009, 04:55 AM | Perry |
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Noel - I'm slow with replying. But I've not forgotten the matter, OK? |
Con fused jus
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| Post #21 Mar 14 2009, 10:06 AM | Noel Cookman |
I've been months in responding before. I don't think I have any room to complain. After all, we have more to do than figure out the universe.
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| Post #22 Mar 16 2009, 09:04 AM | Noel Cookman |
I think I have found out how to add a photo of my granddaughter . . . in my quest to prove she's the most beautiful child in the world.
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| Post #23 Mar 16 2009, 09:04 AM | Noel Cookman |
| Well, I guess I didn't do so well. I'll pray and ask God to help me then try again later. |
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| Post #24 Mar 17 2009, 03:18 AM | Joe E. Holman |
| Very pretty kid, Noel. |
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| Post #25 Mar 17 2009, 12:13 PM | Noel Cookman |
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Thanks Bro. Wasn't sure it made it so that anyone else could see it. Perry and I are debating who's got the prettiest granddaughter of course. His granddaughter is a beautiful young lady. By the way, I'm trying to get those goobers in Austin (The Atheist Experience) to have you on. Their show sucks - but they are pretty good atheists. You would help their ratings. If they could get you and me both on there at the same time, we'd take them to network competition I'm sure. |
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| Post #26 Mar 19 2009, 03:38 AM | Perry |
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I can see why you're besotted, Noel. All her charm and good looks from the other side of the family, no doubt? BTW, if you can figure it out, you'll make a few people happier if you change the 'dimensions' of a pic that you're putting onto the www. My guess is that one was a MB or 2. You could maybe find out how to hack such pix down to no more than 200KB. They'll still look just as good on the screen, but be no good for printing, but will load one helluva lot faster than that one did. You can probably use your current graphics program for such a task. Irfan View or XnView will do, if not. (Freeware for PC's; not sure about Macs) |
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| Post #27 Mar 19 2009, 04:52 AM | Noel Cookman |
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You assume I have the most basic skills. I think I could prove God exists before I could figure out most of this stuff. But, by your suggestion I shall try. Thanks, Your buddy Noel |
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| Post #28 Mar 20 2009, 05:46 AM | Perry |
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It becomes clearer to me why you're part of our little community, Noel. You're a thinker disguised as a religionist. No room for them or other insurrectionists in the ranks! (Flattery will get me nowhere - I know . . . . ) It's tough away from the ranks of the hindered and sold . . . Religion wants no part of lucid, logical and rational thinking. No wonder you are eschewed by those other of your 'congregation' who are so deluded and self-deceived as to treat such attributes (reason, logic, rationality, etc.) as the works/instruments of the devil. Doubtless neither you nor the financiers you represent clients to will accept Statements of Position on a word of phaith. To its detriment, it seems to be a non-negotiable attribute of the human race to want something-for- nothing. IMNSHO, that's the largest and most cogent appeal of religion. Do-what-thou-wilt-then- confess-and-all-will-be-OK. For now and forever, ahem. (cough, splutter, choke) As for being kinder and gentler, if you've been scorned and ridiculed by your religionist peers, not only do I empathise and understand, but I also hold no grudge - none at all, irrespective. Maybe. I'm not holding my breath. Just as you and I agreed to disagree over the storm and the disciples, maybe we can do the same for other aspects? I suspect that the person depicted in the buybull JC 'concept' (I have significant doubts that the figure referred to as JC actually existed) was a very astute and mature philosopher. Perhaps even a very innovative greenie? Taking the lay person definition of ecology as 'everything is connected to everything else,' it seems a short and simple step to see such a principle in: * I and the father are one * Seen me, seen my daddyo * Do it to anyone and you do it to me (and therefore daddy) * Born (recycled) of the material and born again (comprehension of universal connectedness) * Let the sinless be first to condemn * On and on . . . Snap. My views are similar if not the same. What we have now seems a far cry from true free enterprise. Seems more like socialism for corporates or corporate welfare, to me. Err - how's that line go? Ahem, brother! Most of the gatherings I've witnessed (my lady goes to the local scam entertainment centre) are just low- grade, semi-cacophonous rock concerts in disguise with a little moralising thrown in to ease the dollars into the collection coffers. No, nothing to do with tax, as far as I'm aware. At least not for PPOR people. Property investment is different, of course, being a business. Actually, it may be worse, here? Can't you USAmericans claim all or some part of mortgage repayments as a tax deduction? Zilch for kiwis, for PPORs. The reducing trend in home ownership demographics is no more than a consequence of politicians economic mis-management. No, it's worse - make that malfeasance. Fear not - when people are (or feel they are) on the defensive, quick and hasty words may be very hard to avoid. At times, I have to abandon a post, because, after reflection and review, I realise that I'm drifting into the maelstrom of ad hominem commentary. And that does no good at all for a constructive dialogue. Keep it up, Noel. I suspect that you may be winning the battle against truth decay. A little flossing with levity and bonhomie does help. Hhhhmmm, I can't mount any argument to that, for all religion is avoidance of reality - the way I see it. Well, maybe Buddhism is a wee bit better. Huh? I had to re-read that several times, before I . . . If you'd written: "the opposite of unbelief is NOT belief - it's pretension" you'd hear the cheers and encores and amens from there! Noel, are you stringing us all along? When you say things like that, I almost can't accept that you wrote it. Have I got you mis-measured? That lucid observation can't come from the mind of a religionist, can it? I'm reading that in some sort of gob-smacked, can't- believe-what-I-see shock and awe. You really don't accept a counter-point to that from us, do you? Let's take it a step even further. Could it be worse than, once having been found out to be a non-payer on the bus, still expecting to be taken to the destination, despite that. I self-manage my residential and commercial rentals and tenants. Not everyone can do that. People hand off their money to snake oil investment sellers because they're naïve, ignorant, incapable, or somesuch. Despite all the pundits and graphs and charts, PI seems to offer the best hedge against purchasing power erosion, when measured against other options. That word construction constitutes a conundrum. Mainly because they can be fairly seen as situational. I treat my tenants well; fairly but firmly. A good tenancy record over the previous 12 or so months results in me giving the said tenant a Xmas bonus of $100 of petrol vouchers. I'm getting some earthly riches from them, but I can look them in the eye, knowing that I recognise them, value them, if you like. I hope the foregoing is coherent. It's late and I'm typing this on our laptop, from our 9th floor room, over-looking Wellington harbour. We're down here for a Conference (talkfest) for NZ Amputees. Seemed a good chance to catch up with you/this. Now it's time for a shower and sleep. Edited by Perry, Mar 20 2009, 11:16 PM.
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| Post #29 Mar 20 2009, 05:55 AM | Huxley |
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Blimey that must be a packed conference I expect. Practically very little leg room either. I'll get me coat. |
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| Post #30 Mar 20 2009, 12:48 PM | Noel Cookman |
| Dear God, Perry, you're funny. And thought-provoking. I will re-read all this during the weekend. I'll first of all enjoy it all over again. Then, if I can think of anything, I'll make some responses. The problem is most of them might be "amen" or as you say "ahem." |
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